RPGfan

I think that we should actually send this little wishlist for the next Zelda on Wii to Ninty themselves, because I have not yet seen such a perfect display of the pros and cons of the series to date. It would be the best feedback for them to fall back on in creating the next chapter. Anybody up for a little dispatch of a letter from Link´s "alter ego´s", and our wishes sent to Nintendo then?

Agree. The combat system got a drastic overhaul with WW, allthough I, like others I have heard express it, thought it a little over on the too-simplistic side. They could work on making it a little more complex, this time with true motion-control instead of tagged on half-way substitutes. Built from the ground up, the next Wii-Zelda can rightfully be expected to become a new milestone in RPG gaming. I think they get it right next time. But it is just a feeling that I have.

Chris the great wrote: I agree. Nintendo should be extremely carefull about what background story they conjure up next. There was one comment I read once on one internet site where a reviewer lamented the the jumping back and forth in the timeline from one Zelda game to the next. He probably wanted it to be more linear in the progression instead of the quite confusing timelines so far experienced in the Zelda universe. I tend to agree. I had always wanted a Zelda series, where they gave us sequels that adhered more strictly to the times and events that had transpired in the last game that had been launched to market. I believe that it wouldn´t have hurt the series at all, because even though any new game followed strictly in the trail of the previous one, the setting could still be different each time like we saw in the transtition from OOT to MM. Grazze wrote: I concurrently agree that we should have the fire, ice and light arrows back. They gave a special feeling of power and control to the whole game, plus they could be used many times again outside of where they were first aquired. I can´t even recall if they were in TLP.

I hate to spoil the fun in your little debate here, but wasn´t this thread about the upcoming Zelda Wii game? I feel this thread is starting to careen away from it´s intended subject. We should stick to the subject of the topic, correct?

Larger screens? Built-in digital camera? Stronger wireless connection? I am all ears. This is great news. I am tired of the smaller DS Lite anyway, however cool it may be.

It depends on how many people agree with you in that. To change the series each time will be annoying to many because you don´t know what it turns out to be like for being so much into unknown territory, when many just want more of the same good old stuff. But perhaps Nintendo just love to take that risk each time. Their call, then. I will just see what it amounts to and wander off to other games if I keep on being dissapointed. I believe many might think the same as me. People who even grew up with the series. We the kids of the past bought Nintendo´s Zelda games because they always were a tantalizing fairytale full of magic to live through. I really believe that was the determining factor which lead so many to buy the Zelda games over the years. And now that Zelda is one of the biggest name in the business, almost as big as Mario, we still see a lot of people buying the Zelda games even though they aren´t the same as in the past. It takes time for people to gradually or entirely abandon a world renowned game series. But, like has been the case with Sonic, if Nintendo doesn´t watch out they might enter the same zone of dissatisfaction with Zelda as Sonic Team has raked up for themselves with Sonic where people now aren´t far from becoming indifferent in their attitude to the series for being bad some many times even in the handheld games. I recall IGN remarking in the headline to their review of the last Sonic game on the mainconsoles that "maybe someone should put this animal down". I pray that it will never be "Link" that will be inserted into that phrase. True, it takes an awefull amount of discipline to be able to constantly deliver one hit after another in games. But I think Nintendo has been blinded to the roots of the Zelda series by their innovation-spree. Just like Sonic Team did with Sonic. It is the same situation. The maker of the series forgets how he did it in the beginning. And people feel the dissapointment each time. Heck, Nintendo can still reverse the situation to a better one. Which I hope they will. Because they can do that if they want to. Every serious manufacturer ever kept a keen eye fixed on consumer trends, before they change anything about a product. For they know it is dangerous or even lethal to tamper with peoples preferences with their respective line of products. Nintendo has a kind of arrogance, where they don´t care about that in the same meticulous way. They are more reckless, so to speak. They have even said they are willing to take a big risk, which would be the essence of the Blue Ocean market strategy. THe thing about that strategy is that there may in the end, for Nintendo, be no new territories to conquer because people have tired of them and have shifted their attention and love to the competition. I even think Nintendo is somehow aware of this probable nightmare, and therefore has suddenly out of the blue assured us that they haven´t forgotten the hardcore gamers!! I am actually worried about them these days. They are a giant, and giants are always slow to turn around.

No, MM and WW weren´t like the Hyrule we saw in OOT. But both still had the forest theme there, and while Termina Field in MM wasn´t the same as Hyrule Field it was still green and pretty. That world would be comparable to the Dark world created in Metroid Prime 2 thanks to the rift in the dimensional field caused by that meteor. Hyrule´s dark twin. So, in a way they didn´take us that far away from Hyrule. They just reversed the mirror so to speak, and let us experience the other side of it. So yes the designers did create the magic again in MM, but to me not at all in WW. Sure the graphics were a spectacle to watch for the first time, although I hated them very quickly because I want realistic graphics and characters and things and worlds, so there was no magic in that game for me. Only tedious sailing, confusion as to what to do and where to go, and one annoying lack of feeling for the gameworld overall. It wasn´t epic at all, and that is what Nintendo has been able to do with almost every Zelda from the start and up to OOT and MM. I don´t know what you mean by sci-fi Zelda. But if they take it even further into unknown territory theme-wise I may be done with the series. They have to nail first what gives us that special feeling from playing Zelda-games, and then they can design it as they like from there. That is of paramount importance - what gives us the gamers that special feeling of magic playing the Zelda-series. I just still do not think it wise for them to ever put Link in a sci-fi world. I think a lot of kids would lose their attachment and identification with the series. Kids love fairytales, they always have, and I think I can safely say that that is the very reason why so many have bought the Zelda games over the years. It could be that they have run out of ideas, though, with Link in the forest-theme. I could give them several ideas, though, and I hope they have decided to make one more OOT-like Zelda which this time fully lives up to the expectations for such a next-gen OOT which TLP couldn´t be regrettably for the reasons stated by various posts in this thread including my own.

Zelda should always have a balanced difficulty, which is accessible to all. Not like Super Mario Sunshine which was so difficult few ever completed it. And then they could tuck on sidequests and extra puzzles for those who want more to play after the mainquest. They just have to remember to make it exceptional to play. And that is where I always encourage Nintendo to avoid taking the innovation too far. It could jeopardise the whole feeling people get when playing through it, if the game strays too far from it´s roots!! Zelda is about Link who travels through beautifull lands to save Hyrule and Princess Zelda each time. Done slightly different from one game to the next. And now they have perfected the weapons control, and the camera. So what more do they want? How much more could they innovate Zelda where we get the traditional great feeling out of playing it, that feeling of being part of something awesome. An epic journey - almost the videogame equivalent of the world dreamed up by J.R.R. Tolkien himself. And how many gamers could they wind up losing, who wouldn´t like the new feel of any new environment they put Link into? Link on a motorcycle, I once read someone in here suggesting in a post. Link in a modern world? No way ever. They would instantly ruin it, as people´s sense of identification with the theme of the series would be lost. It would be ludicrous if they did that or even something like it. That´s my firm conviction. Zelda is Zelda for the reason of it having always been set where it has been and only there. Or then it wouldn´t be Zelda anymore, and they might as well give it a new name. A lethal metamorphosis. Zelda has always had an old fairytale-like forest theme (even in the 16 bit days), and there is no Zelda without it. That is the magic of it all. That it is like a book which you open, and you are sucked into that book to become part of it´s story. That is how Miyamoto put it anyway in one interview after the release of OOT in 1998. And when you embark on an innovation-spree, you can wind up getting so absorbed into your new ideas that you forget what made the old ones such a succes. And I want more of that, to be once more with that book in my hand and where I open it up on the first page. Knowing in my heart that I have started on a great journey of exploration, discovery and wonder wrapped in the unbeatable feeling all Nintendo games somehow have which will keep me spellbound for tens of hours until I am almost playing it in my sleep too for being so damn good. And it is only Nintendo who know how to make games that way. Still.

Keeping my fingers crossed for that then. And I will be expecting great news on the 2. October announcement by Nintendo. Thumbs up for some "mega-(ton)news to break the ice on the hardcore gamer front.

Thanks, King V, for the compliment! It is warmly appreciated (and kudos to you, Rummy, for describing the problem with TLP spot-on!) But I don´t think people will let Nintendo get away with dropping the exuberance and vigour they are famous for. If they do, their fanbase will smoulder like SEGA´s did, and before they know it all the new-wii-bie´s will tire of the simple games and put their consoles in the attic to gather dust. Their expanded market could fade just as fast as it came. Just look at Microsoft. They are right now dropping the price of the entry level Xbox360 Arcade, to less than the price for a Wii. And they have a release list of great games, with the right brandnames and licenses tucked on, so long that it seems to never stop. My jaw dropped when I realized how many cool games are on the way to the platform. It´s an inundation simply. So I have to buy a console to play them now that they have lessened the noise from the fans (see Christopher Deweese´s review of xbox 360 60 GB version over on Amazon.com). Videogames are about GAMES firstly, not only about revolutionary console-features or raw processing power. We all know that. So Sony´s dire prediction that the Wii will wind up being a mere gimmick could one day hold true. The ball is entirely in Nintendo´s court. There is this ominous tendency for the past´s formerly great videogame developers to go belly-up suddenly after years of trying to hold on. While Nintendo does seem far from that, the truth could be that they are much closer to it than we might think. The marketforces are tricky, and like the shallow loyalty of shareholders consumer trends can shift from one year to the next. It´s all about momentum, foresight and saturation of the market. No dull management sitting on an ocean of money with full bellies. What made Nintendo great, was the desire to penetrate the market and succeed. Hiroshi Yamauchi motivated his developer teams to deliver great games by pitting them up against one another in internal competitions for his blessing like a benevolent, but strict father. But do Nintendo still work that way I ask? Do they still have they old developer desire to make great games for their fans, or do I sense the foul smell of big management slowly beginning to choke off the beauty of creativity and passion for creating the best in interactive entertainment? All within the walls of mighty Nintendo? I encourage Nintendo to keep on satisfying the market with great games and not sub par titles all of the others already have. Therein lies the real danger for Nintendo. They have said it before: if they don´t have a console on the market, they wont be in the market. They wont become a third party agnostic developer. What me and many others had hoped was that the Wii would be a place for great new games, and instead it turns out that while there is admittedly some great games most of the third party devs can´t catch up in quality with Ninty. So what you mostly have is sub par games, with a long wait until the next wave of first party titles arrive. Nintendo has always had this problem. Their titles are of such renown, and such high quality that few others can catch up. Therefore I hold that it is no where near the solution to lessen the quality of their own titles (which EDGE is implying they might) because then you´re looking at imminent doom for the company if people one day find out that the majority of titles on Nintendo platforms are either shovelware, dumbed down or simpleton games (I pray that will never happen, as it would hurt the industry a lot). Sony and Microsoft would be damn quick to take advantage of such a situation and cajole consumers over to them with ready-made sudden price-drops of their superior hardware with games bundled in should Nintendo ever wind up looking like a once-was company. Moreover, the shock such a consumer reaction would send into the financial markets would be considerable. Nintendo has already been in the red once before (for the first time admittedly) a few years back which rattled their stocks. Nintendo then acted by rapidly buying back a lot of shares apparently to prevent a sudden hostile take-over by predatory speculators taking advantage of the temporary down-turn in their stockvalue. So they have felt the heat of hell before, and we can all only hope they havent forgotten it. I think they are aware of it, but the question is how far Iwata and Miyamoto are able to look into the future. If they are even aware of how quickly they can lose what they´ve got, if not they are so sure of their safety on the top that they forget that being in the videogame business is about satisfying gamers, not shareholders. A lot of the videogames companies I have followed over the years in the news from the heights of fortune and fame to doom and gloom seemed to share one common trait: their shareholders, not their developers, decided what games would be released to market. Which finally eroded their fanbase so much that they had garnered a negative reputation. Nintendo should avoid ripples of discontent, for it is the beginning of something larger more ominous. Like I said in my first reply to this thread, there is a lot of companies vying for domination in the industry these days. What I fear, honestly speaking (sigh!) is that Nintendo could cyclically become the next SEGA to be devoured by Sony or Microsoft in a market where big business for mostly shareholders more and more threatens to thwart the love of games and threaten the very premise for the existence of the videogame industry: the love of unique content in virtual worlds which brings greater joy of entertainment than you can find in most other places. Which is why people - even during financial recessions - buy the consoles and games anyway. But one day they might not. I am just using the looking-glasses here based off of mine and other industry observers observations of Nintendo lately. I hope that what I see coming in the end will never materialize.

Grazza wrote: Yes, in that trailer we saw what could have been the greatest Zelda ever. But they removed it, and the result was a lesser game. Thanks to time constraints due to NCL management suddenly deciding to move the game over to Wii. A last minute decision which compromised the Zelda game "many many people" had been asking Nintendo for since the WW graphics style shock. Gone was the many skeletons we were supposed to fight, the new Bottom of the Well-level with half-permeable zombie-like creatures and some other parts that looked a lot like great OOT levels. I revisited all of that lost stuff in Youtube´s The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess 2004 SECOND Trailer (copy and paste it, please - to see and recall the same as I did). Those people, including myself, who wanted the return to OOT like worlds and gameplay were blatantly cheated out of a great game that were never to be. Just so that they could rake in more cash on it on the newly introduced Wii console. I for one didn´t know that those levels had been removed from the game, and so I gladly spent over 300 quid to get to play what was a dumbed down version of a would-be awesome Zelda. Why show us a trailer with levels not found in the final release? I swear in the future I will meticulously examine all reviews with screenshots and videos of any Zelda game they release to first learn what´s actually in it - before I buy it. To not be sidelined by Nintendo and their deceitfull "last minute" decisions. You just can´t do such a thing as to promise one thing and deliver another. It´s bad customer care. So I don´t know where Chris the Great get´s his idea that we "got exactly what we asked for". Because we just didn´t. Far from. That is something I will encourage all who asked for the TLP would-be sequel to WW to remember to we don´t get cheated again. Only a fanbase which speaks out for it´s rights as customers is ever heard. If Nintendo don´t hear us, they have a communication problem. And I want a great Zelda game which is as awesome to play and be in as OOT was. They can make it they way they want to, it just has to be epic. No compromises, no sudden changes. Their lack of foresight, or whatever it is that caused them to so goof up on planning of Wii titles that they sidetrack the developement of a would-be last great Gamecube game to get it over on Wii a few months before it´s release - is not my problem as a paying customer. Only theirs. But they made it my problem, other expectant gamers problem - by releasing it anyway. Which is just plain unfair. Nintendo can do it better, and judging from what they have earned recently they have so much money already that I kind of ask the question of what their problem is in employing more staff so that we can get the game we want (me and all of the "many many people" who begged Nintendo for a non-cel shaded OOT-like Zelda since the unveiling of WW and who - still - feel cheated by TLP). To try something new in a game-series each time is ok, just not if they dumb down the experience or forget what made it so immersive and replayable in previous releases. And I don´t hink it was even Eijii Aouma´s fault at all. I think he was just ordered to do what he did. So the problem lies higher up in the Nintendo management. Nintendo became famous for making that kind of great game-experiences that other companies could not make (and in many cases are only catching up slowly on mimicking). That is what has earned them their reputation. Don´t they ever forget it, or others may one day claim their crown in videogaming.

Here is an awesome videointerview with Eiji Aonuma on what went wrong with Twilight Princess you all should see and with something on the new Zelda Wii. This is really a must-see interview. Thank God for Youtube; so much great stuff to find there. Since I cannot yet directly link to it, I will give you the title of the interview which you can just type in the search field on the site to find the interview. Title is: The legend of zelda twilight princess video interview.

It better be damn good. And yes Nintendo has a chance now to prove they haven´t forgotten how to make awesome games. In the absence of new IP´s they have to keep making great sequels to their existing ones. However difficult it may be to satisfy core gamers demands. I really think being them these days, must be kind of like being a kindergarten teacher, sitting in front of a crowd of kids all yelling at the same time for different demands to be met. And because they each have different things they (us) liked about various Zelda games already released to market, it can be confusing to find out what they should make next. That´s why they could use the current salesnumbers from each of the Zelda´s released, to tell which ones were most popular down throughout videogamehistory. Use that as a measuring rod for finding out what direction not to take Link in the next time. Keeping them fingers crossed for a fantastic Zelda Wii!

Grazza wrote: My comment: There may have been some improvements in TLP, but it didn´t make it a better game. So adding new things in a game doesn´t seem logical if it doesn´t improve the overall playing experience. If people tire of it too quickly, it´s a waste of innovation effort. What TLP lacked in was a technical premise for deeper and longer immersion into the gameworld. The new ideas introduced in the game seems to have been not been properly incorporated. My comment: Best EDGE in a long time. My comment: I doubt Aonuma would have made a worse game. I even think that the day may come where Miyamoto leaves the reins to him and things get like they were in the old days. I think they are tired of Miyamoto ultimately deciding everything. He seems to be the one who pushes for the innovation all of the time. My comment: Yes, Ninty has to watch out! ... My comment: I think that it is exactly the issue of the quaility of Nintendo´s games which will decide whether they are in any danger or not. Sometimes I get the feeling that Miyamoto has his hand into too many things and may periodically lose touch of the course of the other games he is - also - overseeing. My comment: Immersion, immersion, immersion!!! Replayability, replayability, replayability!!!

Tapedeck wrote: __________________ And that is why the new Zelda Wii will likely be just as different. They like to bring out something new and exciting each time. And just like any inventor, they can´t get it right every time. But I think Nintendo has stretched the whole innovation-scheme too far concerning games. I must confess that I would love a return to the OOT Hyrule with larger worlds, updated graphics. When I played TLP, inside some areas there were great elements from the OOT world expertly (re-)made. But the rest of the experience was ruined by a surrounding countryside which had close to no more than a lot of neat 3D structures and distant scenery coupled with too many samey enemies wandering around aimlessly like braindead berks making it all even more dissapointing and not replayable. And don´t get me started on the mockery in the totally out of place and haunting Malon´s song from Lon Lon ranch to the backdrop of an awefully dark and scarily barren Hyrule field that sort of ripped out the heart of the cherished nostalgia I had from my times with OOT in that area of that game. It all felt incredibly rushed. I think that Nintendo should look back at what made OOT so loved by people, and work with that in mind at creating the next Zelda. They should be careful about innovating all of the time, because there is a lot of gamers who want a return to more of the same. And I don´t think I am completely wrng if I say we gamers can get awefully pissed at them if they don´t pay attention to what WE want as opposed to what they want. We are the paying customers, and if a game has sold damn well it means people loved it so why not make more of the same? Are they in business to make money off of their own creative aspirations or to serve their customers wants? Where is the good old developer desire to make great games for their fans.....in making games that constantly change the rules of engagement in either graphics, setting or story? If I get a great dish served at a restaurant, I would like more of it - wouldn´t I? I don´t want to see the chefs suddenly changing the menu because they want to "innovate"? Any vendor in the world should have an ear to the customer base and measure the reactions to a product. And keep serving what people want. With slight, not exaggerated (WW), modifications over time. Or arrogant reactions to rightfull complaints. Wasn´t Iwata using the metaphor of "cooking great meals" (and how he liked to prepare those specially to his customers delight), when he was touching on the subject of being the head of NCL at E3 2006? Where is the "delight" in waiting since 1998for an overhyped would-be OOT actual remake (not alike the unnecessary upgrade that was Master Quest), and winding up with a huge dissapointment? Surely Nintendo should know better? In the latest issue of EDGE Magazine there is a special article that deals with Nintendo´s reputed departure from the old way of catering mostly to the core gamers over to having taken a double path now catering to both the core, and expanded audience of gamers. Having turned around the very formula of success by shifting it´s very focus on the games alltogether. They now get away with making games being far simpler, far easier to make that with the right brandnames tucked on to them sell in greater numbers than at any time previously (having fully utilized the Blue Ocean strategy to the terror of their dumbfounded competitors stuck in the Red Ocean still) even to the extent of some saying the Wii is flooded with shovelware and whereas the good-old awesome undertakings like OOT and SM64 are fewer and further inbetween. I don´t know if this means a lesser Nintendo in the future, but they should keep that ear to the fan community instead of "upturning the teatable" at the apparent whim of the man who created the foundation of its so far formidable worldwide succeses. Otherwise Sony´s prediction that the Wii will wear of as a gimmick could come through one day. I have this feeling that the core fanbase will eventually tire of Nintendo if all that´s mostly found on it, is simple and in the end inadequate games. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Nintendo once again sits at the top of power right now. Just like it wanted. It has been indeed - the return of the King! I for one do hope that Miyamoto will remain the same great little meek man he became famous through being; loyal to his customers and all and not become blind to the needs of his fans and sighted to only his own ambitions as a chief game designer. For so it seems these days. And since there are many competitors vying for domination he and Iwata should be carefull what direction they take their games in. EDGE Magazine outright calls it dangerous for them to further embark on the innovation course. Fortunes can change swiftly, with Fable 2 and many other great games right around the corner. And then - I don´t think the DS will be enough to save them! Keeping my fingers crossed for Nintendo. For they are right where I want them, but I also want the games that made me love them! Am I alone is this desire?