Transgender

@kav82 @Goafer @nekunando

Here I am carrying on the convo:

OK. So, just so everyone here knows, Taiwanese kathoey (or ‘ladyboys’) like to be referred to with female pronouns (she, her, etc). And this should be respected. Why should it be respected? Because transgendered people deserve the same kind of respect as non-transgendered (or “cis”) people receive.

You, as a cis person, take being called by the correct pronoun for granted, so it may not seem like a big deal to you, but transgendered people have fought (and are fighting) for the right to be recognised as the gender that they really are.

Calling a transgendered person by the incorrect pronouns is deeply disrespectful and, if done intentionally, transphobic.

So, please, lets all be respectful.

If anyone has any further questions, please don’t hesitate to ask.

I didn't mean any offence in my joke reply to Nekunando, it was just he and I joking with each other and with myself, hence my first post using female pronouns. There was no ill intent in what I said.

I think it's fair to refer to them as whatever until they correct you and tell you what they want to be called as. I'm pretty sure that some "ladyboys" will want to be referred to with male pronouns (or even something else), so you just can't assume for the entire group of people.

There are lots of different ways that different people like to be referred to. It's ridiculous to be offended if someone doesn't get it right, or takes a while to get used to the "correct" one (I'm bad enough with just names).

I knew someone at university who didn't like either pronoun, and preferred to be referred to as 'they' instead. You really had to be on the ball the whole time, because your mind automatically slips into one or the other.

There was no ill intent in what I said.

I know

I think it's fair to refer to them as whatever until they correct you and tell you what they want to be called as. I'm pretty sure that some "ladyboys" will want to be referred to with male pronouns (or even something else), so you just can't assume for the entire group of people.

 

There are lots of different ways that different people like to be referred to. It's ridiculous to be offended if someone doesn't get it right, or takes a while to get used to the "correct" one (I'm bad enough with just names).

I wouldnt refer to a cis-man as "she" because I know that the vast vast majority of cis-men use the pronoun "he". Maybe some kathoey somewhere will prefer "he" but that would most definitely be the exception and not the rule.

I just like to call transgendered people by the pronouns that they prefer because its the respectful thing to do. Obviously sometimes I will get it wrong and I will be corrected on that by them, and thats fine.

I knew someone at university who didn't like either pronoun, and preferred to be referred to as 'they' instead. You really had to be on the ball the whole time, because your mind automatically slips into one or the other.

I also knew someone the same.

Its quite hard to get your head around after spending all your life using "he" and "she" isnt it?

The tone of the posts by Kav82 and Nekunando seemed entirely transphobic. Kav's attitude seemed completely disrespectful and exploitative.

The tone of the posts by Kav82 and Happenstance seemed entirely transphobic. Kav's attitude seemed completely disrespectful and exploitative.

Wait what???

Wait what???

Oh god, sorry. I completely misread your post, should have said Nekunando.

Sorry about that.

Wow.. this escalated unexpectedly

I assure there was no transphobic intent on my part as people can be whatever they want to be. I guess it would be fair to accuse me of ignorance as I don't know which gender tag, if any, is appropriate. I'm not even sure I interpreted 'ladyboy' correctly

Call me ignorant, by all means, but I don't want to be accused of being something I'm not. I apologize for any offence it may have caused but I'm shocked by what has escalated from something I considered to be a purely innocent post.

Again, I'm sorry.

The tone of the posts by Kav82 and Nekunando seemed entirely transphobic. Kav's attitude seemed completely disrespectful and exploitative.

I honestly didn't mean for it to come across that way. I was in no way trying to offend and am happy to apologise if it did.

I've honestly no problem with people being transgender and I think my post came across as such because of the way I chat with my friends. We all take digs at each other and take the piss, none of it is meant in any ill manner, it's just joking amongst us.

With me being half Iranian my mates jokingly call me half terrorist and our back and forth can seem like some things that are said are too much.

I guess it's as a result of this back and forth I have with my friends that my posts can sometimes come across in such a way... it's because I love the forum and I've been on the site so long I enjoy chatting to you guys, so I chat like I do with my mates... but it's without any ill intent or any underlying disgust, prejudice or anything of the sort.

Having read the thread and reading here straight after, I'm ever so slightly annoyed about it but not for the reasons you'd think.

For me, I don't think @kav82 was offensive or transphobic in any way in his original post and it's blatantly obvious that he wasn't trying to be (so much so that he shouldn't need to explain he was joking). For me, it was more @nekunando that I could see it being slightly transphobic but even then, it's obvious no malice was intended.

Okay, I understand that these things happen a lot but it's the people intending hurt and malice that we need to aim this stuff to.

I'm constantly judged on my size, colour and personality and my friends have the same sort of banter but I'm not going to pick it out amongst people who know others.

Please don't take this post wrong as I'm sure many may do but I'm just trying to say to be careful of saying people are being something they clearly wasn't because things like that can stick. That was aimed more at @killthenet (but don't take it as bitchy or malicious because I'm not trying to be but I just didn't want people being drawn out in a bad light because things like that can stick with you for time and people can judge others).

However, my question is more why this couldn't be resolved over messaging? Like I said, I understand if they were being malicious but they clearly wasn't. A simple message correcting them both would've been a bit discreet and less embarrassing for them both...

Having read the thread and reading here straight after, I'm ever so slightly annoyed about it but not for the reasons you'd think.

 

For me, I don't think @kav82 was offensive or transphobic in any way in his original post and it's blatantly obvious that he wasn't trying to be (so much so that he shouldn't need to explain he was joking). For me, it was more @nekunando that I could see it being slightly transphobic but even then, it's obvious no malice was intended.

 

Okay, I understand that these things happen a lot but it's the people intending hurt and malice that we need to aim this stuff to.

 

I'm constantly judged on my size, colour and personality and my friends have the same sort of banter but I'm not going to pick it out amongst people who know others.

 

Please don't take this post wrong as I'm sure many may do but I'm just trying to say to be careful of saying people are being something they clearly wasn't because things like that can stick. That was aimed more at @killthenet (but don't take it as bitchy or malicious because I'm not trying to be but I just didn't want people being drawn out in a bad light because things like that can stick with you for time and people can judge others).

 

However, my question is more why this couldn't be resolved over messaging? Like I said, I understand if they were being malicious but they clearly wasn't. A simple message correcting them both would've been a bit discreet and less embarrassing for them both...

Have to agree with you here. I don't agree that this needed a topic - a simple PM to these people to discuss points of view would suffice. Shaming is not a cool thing to do @Nuntendo @killthenet.

Have to agree with you here. I don't agree that this needed a topic - a simple PM to these people to discuss points of view would suffice. Shaming is not a cool thing to do @Nuntendo @killthenet.

Thanks for seeing it how I saw it. I wasn't sure if it was me or not and I'm not good at explaining myself so thanks

In fairness to @Nuntendo and @killthenet, I don't think they're shaming. Nuntendo specifically quotes me saying he knows there was no malice in my post and killthenet just says how it came across to him, that he says it's how it seemed to him shows he's not really shaming, just pointing it out so that we're aware (I think).

If it is the case that others may have seen it that way too then I think a new topic to discuss is ok and I've no problem with it. I'm happy to discuss as I have above and, again, I'm happy to apologise if people were offended as I didn't mean any offence.

If this is ironed out and people come to understanding one another then I'm all for the topic and us chatting in here.

@kav82 @Goafer @nekunando

Here I am carrying on the convo:

 

OK. So, just so everyone here knows, Taiwanese kathoey (or ‘ladyboys’) like to be referred to with female pronouns (she, her, etc). And this should be respected. Why should it be respected? Because transgendered people deserve the same kind of respect as non-transgendered (or “cis”) people receive.

 

You, as a cis person, take being called by the correct pronoun for granted, so it may not seem like a big deal to you, but transgendered people have fought (and are fighting) for the right to be recognised as the gender that they really are.

Calling a transgendered person by the incorrect pronouns is deeply disrespectful and, if done intentionally, transphobic.

 

So, please, lets all be respectful.

 

If anyone has any further questions, please don’t hesitate to ask.

The Kathoey ladyboys are located in Thailand not Taiwan. Both locations are separated by 100s of miles and are completely different cultures. In fact transgender people in Taiwan have less issues with incorrect pronoun usage due to he, she and it sharing the same Chinese pronoun (ta).

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In fairness to @Nuntendo and @killthenet, I don't think they're shaming. Nuntendo specifically quotes me saying he knows there was no malice in my post and killthenet just says how it came across to him, that he says it's how it seemed to him shows he's not really shaming, just pointing it out so that we're aware (I think).

 

If it is the case that others may have seen it that way too then I think a new topic to discuss is ok and I've no problem with it. I'm happy to discuss as I have above and, again, I'm happy to apologise if people were offended as I didn't mean any offence.

 

If this is ironed out and people come to understanding one another then I'm all for the topic and us chatting in here.

Fair play, thought you might have been bothered by it. No harm done on either side and hopefully nobody took anything the wrong way.

In fairness to @Nuntendo and @killthenet, I don't think they're shaming. Nuntendo specifically quotes me saying he knows there was no malice in my post and killthenet just says how it came across to him, that he says it's how it seemed to him shows he's not really shaming, just pointing it out so that we're aware (I think).

 

If it is the case that others may have seen it that way too then I think a new topic to discuss is ok and I've no problem with it. I'm happy to discuss as I have above and, again, I'm happy to apologise if people were offended as I didn't mean any offence.

 

If this is ironed out and people come to understanding one another then I'm all for the topic and us chatting in here.

Ah, no worries. I just didn't want people to think you were something you wasn't. It can be easily done but I'm all good anyway. Let's keep the peace, braaahs!

Hey guys

I hope that nobody misunderstood my tone here.

I just saw that some people on here were unaware of the way they were talking about transgendered people and I wanted to inform them of this. I didnt think that anybody was being intentionally transphobic - if I did I would have reacted very differently, thats for sure.

The reason why I did this as a public thread and not seperate PMs was not to shame anybody but because, firstly, I didnt want any trans person on this forum to feel there were alone or were being maliciously discriminated against by anyone here and, secondly, because I wanted to create a thread for everyone so we can all ask questions and learn about this topic together.

Having said all this, I can understand the way killthenet has responded because, being transgendered (I am assuming here), killthenet has to put up with discrimination on, what I imagine is close to, a daily basis.

Or even if killthenet isn't trans, I can totally understand reactions like that anyway because you hear so much transphobic vitriol these days.

its not my place to accept apologies on behalf of any transgendered person but I will say that, for me, personally, I do know that nobody here meant to be transphobic and I knew that from the outset (or, at least, I gave everyone the benefit of the doubt). So, apologies accepted.

The Kathoey ladyboys are located in Thailand not Taiwan. Both locations are separated by 100s of miles and are completely different cultures.

Ah, my mistake!

In fact transgender people in Taiwan have less issues with incorrect pronoun usage due to he, she and it sharing the same Chinese pronoun (ta).

Thats very interesting! I didnt know any language did that.

I suppose its not surprising as many languages, such as Italian and Spanish, go very heavily in to gendering everything (tables etc) so I guess its to be expected that another language has gone the other way completely.

Before I address this post/topic - can I just say to ANYONE out there who feels discriminated against or uncomfortable about comments relating to a sensitive subject like this, totally get in touch with us or me specifically. We're a wide and varied community, and I don't believe anyone here wants anyone else to feel unwelcome, but I also don't want anyone to feel that way either, so if there's something that does give rise to it - get in touch.

To the post/topic! For me @Animal pretty much hit the nail for me with his post.

Tbh, I think there's been some jumping on a few things here. I didn't believe there was any malice or ill intent on anyone's part for any of this, neither the original comments nor the creation of this thread.

In fact I support the creation of this thread! There's clearly something worthy of a conversation here! I think the comments and feelings have come out of an ignorance, so I think it's a good thing to have a discussion, and actually I would praise @Nuntendo as a new member to the community to try and bring a relevant and worthy discussion out of it. Having a thread to discuss it may be positive in reducing the ignorance than can lead to unintended offence, and help us recognise and avoid it in future.

Currently, I haven't a point to contribute outside of that - but I am aware this can be a sensitive topic, and I would encourage anybody who has an issue around things like this to get in touch and raise it with us/me if you're feeling that a line's been crossed, and we'll take things from there. Just want to make sure everyone feels welcome and comfortable here, as we all deserve