Rick Powers, Planet GameCube: So one of the things you said in the beginning when you were talking yesterday is that the game is mostly finished. The story’s complete, correct?

Denis Dyack, Silicon Knights: Yes.

PGC: So it’s basically just some bug testing and some other little things we have to fix up before the game is done then?

DD: Yeah. We have a small percentage of assets still to drop in, meaning some touch-ups on some cinematics and things like that, but mostly the game is 90% done and getting ready to go into full bug test.

PGC: You said that there’s gonna be 12 playable characters in the game?

DD: That’s correct.

PGC: One of the things you mentioned yesterday is that the Knights Templar character, Joseph DeMolay, isn’t in the game?

DD: No, he’s not.

PGC: Was he originally planned to be in the game, and was dropped, or was he something that was thrown in as a red-herring?

DD: Well, really when we were designing the game we did a lot of tests and we showed a lot of things at E3 that weren’t really intended ever to be there, we created a lot of levels that didn’t exist. Joseph’s character was one of the characters we wanted to test with “akimbo” (Ed. Dual-Wielded) weapon sets, or with the Florentine. But as we continued to develop the game and work on the game, his purpose was served at E3 and he’s now gone.

PGC: So you said that basically all you have left to do now is some gameplay tweaks and things along those lines, and some of the things EAD has been working with you on polishing up the gameplay.

DD: We have been working very closely with EAD.

PGC: Can you give us some examples of some of the things that have changed since you started talking with them?

DD: Well, just to be clear, We’ve been working closely with EAD for a very long time.

PGC: About how long?

DD: Over … almost two years, maybe three. It’s been a very good relationship. Really, for us, we’re really in the learning stages of trying to make sure we understand how Nintendo creates great gameplay. I think over the next few years, we’ll continue to grow and we’re looking forward to working with them in the future. Really, it’s a collaborative effort … so just at that level, we’ve been working together for a long time. This is not new, this is not recent. This has been going on for a long time.

Where have they helped? I think they’ve helped in almost every regard. We’ve all worked together to try to make the game the best it can be. We’ve started to and we’re going into the final stages of balancing, is this too hard, is this too easy? Simple, fundamental mechanics that help the gameplay feel more intuitive. It’s hopefully something when you played, it was more of … you didn’t understand why, but you felt a flow, a natural flow to the game.

PGC: Yeah, that’s definitely coming through.

DD: Oh, thanks, thanks. That’s, in some regard, where EAD and Nintendo in general have contributed immensely. There are so many areas. For me to give you sort of an exact (list of) what they’ve helped, it would be too much. I can make broad, sweeping generalizations everywhere. Storyline, graphics, everything. You name it, they’ve helped us.

PGC: One of the things I notice is that the third character's level, the Ellia character, there is an item that actually helps heal you as you’re going through there. It seems like that the entire area would be very, very difficult if you didn’t have that healing ability. Is that one of the things that was added in to make that level a little bit easier?

DD: Well certainly, there are things like that. We wanted to make sure that the average person, not (just) the hardcore gamer, is going to be able to enjoy Eternal Darkness. One of the things you may or may not have noticed with Anthony as you play … I don’t want to give the plot point away, but his level is extremely easy. It’s just a matter of understanding what’s actually happening there. Basically, adding those kinds of things is there to balance, to make sure it’s fun for the player. We’re really not interested in making the game difficult to make it seem longer. We’re very confident that the game is of a scope large enough that players will be satisfied. Really what we want to do is make sure that within the first five or six hours of the game, without question, people are just really enjoying it, having fun, not getting frustrated. That’s the goal. Hopefully the puzzles are very intuitive; they make sense to the player. And that’s one of the reasons that amulet is in there. A lot of players don’t need it, a lot of the good players, but some of them do.

PGC: Obviously, you guys have been working on Eternal Darkness for many, many years. I know the first time I saw it was at E3 ’99, when it was still an N64 title. Obviously, you’ve put a great deal of your life into this game. Seeing it now, seeing it pretty much in completed form, and seeing the way people here are reacting to it … are you satisfied? Is there anything else you’d like to change if you had the time?

DD: I think when you make videogames, there’s always more that you could do. And certainly I think we would love to continue to add more, and add to the game. But at the end of the day, I think it’s going to be a very different experience. For me, seeing how people reacted this weekend, it seemed very positive. I’m eagerly waiting to see some of the press reports and stuff, to see if it continues in that trend.

We’re not finished yet, so this for me is like a mini-vacation … I’ve got to go back into “crunch mode” and we’ve gotta finish the game. Right now, our job is not to disappoint the game players, and we’re working really hard to make sure that when a player comes up and picks up Eternal Darkness, that they’re completely satisfied. And that’s really the general Nintendo philosophy. I think one of the things that really separate Nintendo from the rest of the other first parties, is that Nintendo cares about making great games that the players will enjoy. We work for the consumer, and that’s the bottom line.

It’s good seeing it close to done. Believe me, it’s nice to see. But we’ve got more work to do, so it’s no time to celebrate yet.

PGC: Since you brought up the vacation thing, I remember you saying that after this is all done and the game has shipped, you were going to take a two-week vacation … you said you were going to Japan?

DD: I was thinking about going to Japan, yes.

PGC: Have you ever been to Japan before?

DD: Yes, several times. With EAD, we’ve visited there several times … four, I think now? And they’ve visited us several times.

PGC: Is this your first time getting to actually be a tourist down there?

DD: Yes! Usually when I go there, we work, and we work very late hours. And then I come home and sleep on the plane, and then get back to work in St. Catherine’s.

PGC: Has the cast of characters changed much you’ve first started working on it for the N64 compared to where it’s at now?

DD: There’ve been some slight changes. We’ve basically gone over and tried to look at what would be the most interesting and the most fun, but overall, there haven’t been any significant changes since we first designed it. Generally, the direction and vision of the plot line has been fairly anchored … that’s generally how we work at Silicon Knights when we start creating something. I think overall, that we’re very happy with the way it turned out.

With some of the extra time, one of the things we were allowed to do was really fine-tine and tighten every detail. And I think, hopefully, when you get a chance to play the game and when you finish the game, that you’ll see that more than just talk, we actually “walk the walk” and all those stories do come together and make sense. That’s not something that’s easily done, it’s not something they can really move around a lot. It takes careful planning and really meticulous checking of all the details, because we have the historical accuracy as well … we really want to check things in. As you saw in some of the demonstrations, someone was asking, “Dude, why did the Roman Centurion have his feathers perpendicular to the helmet instead of (like) the traditional Greeks”, and that was just a short time period in the Roman empire where that occurred. We wanted to be accurate that way too.

So, overall, it’s pretty much the same. There are always changes throughout gameplay. That’s one of the things, when you change gameplay, it’s going to affect … because this is not just a story where you get cutscenes and then all of a sudden you go to gameplay, and then you get more cutscenes. The story is so interwoven with the gameplay, as the gameplay evolved we were forced to change some things, but nothing major and nothing drastic.

PGC: After all the focus testing and tweaking, would you say that the Insanity system as it stands now is really integral to the gameplay, or is it basically kind of a gimmicky little thing to set the mood of the game?

DD: No, it’s definitely integral to the gameplay, and you really haven’t experienced the game enough to really understand the differences in how Sanity works, versus how Magic works, versus how Health works. They’re all complementary to each other. There’s definitely some Insanity Effects that occur over several levels, and until you play and until you realize what’s going on, it takes a while for it to all sink in.

One of the things, as I said earlier, the Sanity System is our opportunity to sort of, in some sense, play with the gamers and get them to react. While we were just in the other room there, we had one person go “Oh, you got me!” Which we always love, but the Magic system will complement the player, and allow them to play with the system and explore the system. There’s really a dynamic of how the system works, the combat system versus the magic system versus the sanity system … they do affect gameplay significantly, depending on what choices you make at the beginning of the game, it’s gonna drastically change the balancing. You’re gonna get to see different creatures, and see different encounters and storylines. It’s very different. We’re confident that it will be different, people should be satisfied … we hope. But we think so.

PGC: What do you hope to leave the player with in terms of how they feel and what they’ve experienced when they’re finished playing the game?

DD: I guess, we really strongly believe that the videogame industry, or the sort of medium of videogames is the next evolution in entertainment. We think that because it’s non-linear, and that the player can actually affect what you do in the storyline, which is what we’re trying to do with Eternal Darkness, the player will be profoundly affected, and basically feel like they’ve reached this … we’re trying to really reach this sort of aesthetic balance where the player forgets everything around them, and basically they just enjoy the moment, and they come back and say, “Wow, that was a great experience.” It’s like one of those times where you’re in something and you reach sort of this “flow”, and you get there, and suddenly you’re just like, “Wow, that was a great experience, I wanna play more of that. I want to do something more like that again.” That’s what we’re trying to achieve, ‘cause we want people to have that experience.

One of the things that we’ve researched a lot is an experiment called “Flow”. It’s a psychological research (into) what people do when they really enjoy themselves. Flow is a state where you lose track of time. So when you’re playing, if you lose track of time … you’ve had this. It’s kind of like, people say “I’m in a groove,” or “I really like the game”.

PGC: Game Time.

DD: Game Time. Exactly. That’s what we’re hoping to achieve. By combining elements of music, art, technology, story, and gameplay … combining all of those together, we think that it adds up to more than just the sum of the parts. It’s just this experience that people will just go, “Wow, that was really different.” So that’s a really long answer to a short question.

PGC: Have you found it difficult to balance actually having Eternal Darkness be a game, and the gameplay balance that needs to be achieved, in order to make the game fun, combined with the artistic, and trying to actually tell a story?

DD: That’s very difficult, especially because you have to start with … when you start doing something like this, you can’t just say, “Here’s our game, now let’s write a story for it.”

PGC: Although a lot of developers do that.

DD: The majority of the industry does that. What you have to come up with is a cohesive design for the game, the story, for everything before you start. It’s very, very challenging. However, I’ll tell ya, it’s great being part of the Nintendo family, because with the support we’re getting from Nintendo, those kinds of issues … they become very much easier to deal with.

I hope you can you can see the difference, between this and our previous game (Blood Omen), is that everything is much more coherent, much more brought together. And when you’re playing Eternal Darkness, hopefully the story will flow into the gameplay, and the gameplay will flow into the story, and there’s really this sort of mix. Hopefully it’s more seamless transitions, where you just think, “Oh, what’s happening now? Cool.” You know you don’t have control, because it’s letterboxed, but that’s all you know. Those are the kinds of things we’re trying to get. It is very challenging, but I really think that as game designers, we’re responsible for the content that we create. And because Eternal Darkness (as an example) is a “mature” product, we want through the storytelling and through the gameplay, and through what you’re doing, we want there to be repercussions of your actions, and we really want the player to sort of understand his environment. And if people start learning things like, again going back to the Roman Centurions, what their helmets looked like back then … or going to Angkor Wat with Ellia in Cambodia, those different locations, people will actually look at it and go “Wow, I just actually learned something from that.” That’s very important, because if people are going to play videogames as much as they’re playing, then I think that it’s important that they learn things through osmosis. I personally find that very interesting, and so do a lot of people at Silicon Knights. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

It’s the same sort of Shakespearean analogy, where Shakespeare would write dirty jokes for people in the front rows, cerebral metaphors for the aristocracy in the balconies. What he would try do by doing all of that, is that he would try to reach as many people as possible and touch them, where that’s what we’re hoping to do as well … by the gameplay, the graphics, by combining all these elements. We’re gonna say, hey the average game player is going to want to play this, but the non-average game player, or the person who never plays games, will sit there and look at Eternal Darkness and go, “This is really different. I might check this out.” And that’s what we’re trying to do, is grab them and reach them in. All that together combines into the sort of design philosophy we have.

PGC: We already know that Eternal Darkness is sticking with one disc, and I know that you guys have a ton of compressed video in there along with the gameplay, and some of the images and cinematics. Was there ever the temptation to go to two discs, especially since Capcom is already doing it with Resident Evil?

DD: No. No. Not really. We were always confident that we could get it on one disc. We’re gonna fill the disc, but we were confident that we could get it on one. One of the things that’s significantly different … I’m a big Resident Evil fan, so, I love Resident Evil. But Resident Evil has the pre-rendered backgrounds. That takes significant amounts of space. Because Eternal Darkness is all real-time, we’re allowed to quickly change camera angles, and not take up nearly as much disc space with the locations as what they’re doing.

More of the 3D stuff was more for gameplay, just the smooth flowing, really making the person feel that they’re in a 3D space, and that they really have control over their environment, and their environments are interactive. So that’s one of the reasons, mostly for that. But it just happened to be that going in that direction means less disc space, so that was great.

PGC: At E3, you said something along the lines of “If it doesn’t come out at launch, Nintendo will have my head.” *Denis laughs* Obviously you’ve still got your head …

DD: Do I look like a zombie? *Rick laughs* The thing with the delay, and I know many delays in the industry are looked upon as negative … We were on schedule, and I think it would have been very possible for us to make launch, but through discussions with Nintendo and us, we just basically looked at it, and the confidence was high in the product and in the game, and we thought that if spent more time we can make it … bring it to this next level of what I would consider Triple-A Nintendo quality. They worked very closely with us together. We’re a team, and I kind of view us as inseparable. That comment was made in jest, because I was very confident that we were going to make the deadline, and we could have, but the bottom line was that the delay itself was a mutual decision. I think everyone’s happy with that delay. Also, when you’re thinking about delays, and I know a lot of people out there get annoyed with them, is not really to think about the delay itself, but look at the results of the delay. I think that the results of the delay for Eternal Darkness have turned into something that makes it worth the wait.

Certainly when games are made, we have to be as responsible as possible to make them, get them out as soon as possible and to keep to schedules. But at the end of the day, this is just a reinforcement of “The Nintendo Difference”, where if the games aren’t as good as they can be, we’ll make them better. I think you’ll see a profound difference … and you’re already starting to it with the other platforms where one platform might have 50 or 60 games that are, you know, not very good … where Nintendo will have fewer but much higher caliber. I think what’s really going to happen in the next few years with those other platforms, is it’s going to be like finding a needle in a haystack, where one good game is like one in a thousand. At least on the Nintendo platform, there will be lots of games. It’s only a matter of time. But all those games will be significantly of higher caliber than what everyone else has to offer. And that’s when the consumer is really going to win, ‘cause they’re going to be able to go over to the shelf, and say, “Hey, they might have delayed this product, but I know this one’s good.” And then pick it up and be confident, have their enjoyment, be confident that it’s of Nintendo quality.

PGC: Is there any apprehension at all about launching the game smack-dab in the middle of summer, which tends to be a really slow period for game sales?

DD: Not really. I think that if a game is good, it’s gonna sell. For example, I think Goldeneye released right around the same time period. I think Nintendo doesn’t shy away from release dates like that. The bottom line is that when the game is ready, it’s ready to go, and people will buy a good game regardless of the time of the year, so I’m not really too concerned.

PGC: How much compressed video is in ED, not in terms of space but in terms of time players will spend watching a movie?

DD: Cutscenes … I’m being conservative, but we’re very confident that it’s over five hours. Probably more. That’s not even including everything either. There’s a lot of stuff there. The amount of content compared to anything else that we’ve done, this is much, much more than anything else. So over five hours is safe. You won’t see all that with one play through, you’ll have to see some of that through multiple play throughs. So if a player is going to finish the game, it’s probably north of two hours or so.

PGC: I’ll skip the next question, since this was asked before we found out that the E3 demo would again be knocked down into demo form.

DD: That’s right, it will be crippled, so this is the only chance to see the full game.

PGC: Will it basically be the same characters and environments that we saw in the previous demos, but updated to the new engine, or …

DD: No, I think that we’ll probably show a couple of new characters, but it hasn’t been fully decided yet. They’re not going to be ones that late in the levels, they’ll be earlier ones, so if you play far enough here today, you’ll probably see those and understand all those.

PGC: Are you happy with your relationship with Nintendo?

DD: Absolutely.

PGC: Has there ever been any time where you’ve reconsidered going back to a Sony (or Microsoft) platform?

DD: No. I know that our experience has been nothing but positive, and we really value working with Nintendo. Nintendo has been a strong supporter of Silicon Knights, we get along great with everyone and we get tremendous support and we feel (like) part of the family. Silicon Knights has no intention whatsoever of ever making a game for any other platform besides Nintendo. We’re very happy. I’ll tell you, working with Nintendo is like working with the great masters, with Aristotle. When Miyamoto-san says something, it’s always very detailed and always very insightful and always very knowledgeable. Some of the people there with the least experience at Nintendo have more experience than anyone else in North America on making games. So this is not something to be taking lightly … we consider it a great opportunity, and we just can’t say enough good things and we’re very, very happy.

Nintendo PR: He would have said all that whether I was here or not. *Rick laughs*

PGC: What does it feel like to be finally wrapping up something that’s taken up so much of your life?

DD: Well, it’s funny, ‘cause it’s not really like that yet. With the way it usually works, is when you’re finished with the game, it’ll be one day you’re really, really busy, and the next day it’s over. We’re still really, really busy. Right now, it’s kind of like the eye of the hurricane for me. Coming down here is a nice break, getting to talk to you guys is great, and just getting the feedback is so good, because we’ve done a lot of internal testing, focus testing, but we haven’t seen any external. It seems to have paid off, so it’s very … that’s a great relief and it’ll be great to go back home and tell everyone what the reaction was, but as soon as we get back home, we just gotta work and get this game done. We’ve got a lot of work ahead of us, and we’re on schedule, but we want to make sure that we don’t miss. We’re not there yet, so that feeling hasn’t hit. I’ll call you when it does hit. *laughing*

PGC: And you’re not ready to talk about anything else upcoming for GameCube yet … are you actually regretting having shown any of Too Human, considering you’ve got a game you’re working really hard at, it’s looking great, and people just keep asking, “What about Too Human?”

DD: I don’t think we ever regret showing anything, however, certainly I think we might be more prudent in the future about showing things before we know they’re ready to go. I think we’re going to be a little bit more concerned so that this doesn’t happen. I get e-mails often about Too Human. I get a lot about Eternal Darnkess, but there’s always a follow-up, “So, what’s going on with Too Human?” We’re just not ready to talk about that yet. There will be announcements in the future, but this is not the time. We’re really concentrating on Eternal Darkness and making it the best it can be. And then … next time, after E3 this year we’ll probably have something to talk about then.

PGC: Let’s see … we know how many blocks it’s going to take on the memory card.

DD: Fifteen.

PGC: Is that per save, or is that total?

DD: Total.

PGC: And that gives you what, four save slots?

DD: Yes, four.

PGC: Billy was really happy to hear about that, he didn’t want to have to buy another memory card, although he probably will when the 251 comes out. And we know it’s compatible with the Wave Bird …

DD: Yes.

Nintendo PR: That was amazing!

DD: Wasn’t that cool? Through the wall?

Nintendo PR: I could not believe it.

DD: Yes, through the wall …

PGC: Well, along the same lines as future projects, we know you’ve talked about being very interested in the Game Boy Advance, and some of it’s abilities … being able to link up with the GameCube. Have you made any progress, thinking about what you want to do with the Game Boy Advance going forward?

DD: No announcements yet.

PGC: So, how about that Blood Omen 2?

DD: *Laughs* Am I supposed to answer that?

PGC: Yes. *Smiles*

DD: I think it’s very clear that Crystal Dynamics and Eidos have taken the game in a different direction than we would have taken it. And clearly it’s just a different kind of game. It’s really not even close to Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain when we developed it. We’ll see what the fans say, and I think the fans will speak with their buying dollars, whether they like it or not. It’s just something that we wouldn’t have done.

PGC: We know you’re a huge Resident Evil fan. What do you think of the new release of Resident Evil.

DD: I haven’t had a chance to play it yet! I saw it briefly for literally one minute. It looks really cool, I’m looking forward to playing it. I’m actually looking forward to seeing all the Resident Evil games on the GameCube. I think it’ll be a great win for all the gamers out there, and certainly another great step towards showing the world that the GameCube is for everyone, not just a limited section. Where the other first-parties may try to pigeon-hole and feel comfortable saying that Nintendo’s for a younger audience, clearly that’s not the case and hopefully from what you’ve seen this weekend, that’s not the case.

PGC: What games are you currently playing, if you’ve got time, I guess …

DD: Eternal Darkness … that’s all I’m playing.

PGC: If you could team up with one developer, excluding any developers partially or fully-owned by Nintendo (including Nintendo themselves) to co-develop a game, what team has caught your eye as being very talented and somebody you’d like to work with?

DD: Oh, geez … and it can’t be a first or second-party?

PGC: Nope.

DD: That’s a very unusual question. I think Capcom … I’d be very interested in working with them; I think they do some great stuff. I guess, if I had to pick one … yeah.

PGC: What would you say are some of the advantages and disadvantages to being a developer based in (Canada), as opposed to a U.S.-based developer, or a Japan-based developer?

DD: I think really with the medium and the ways that it’s progressed, it isn’t an advantage or a disadvantage to be anywhere. I think that we’re able to collaborate with anyone we need to collaborate with, and communicate with anyone we need to communicate with, so it’s not really our locations. It’s almost indifferent. I think that there’s certainly a great amount of talent with the area that we’re in, and hopefully it comes out with what you see in Eternal Darkness. Overall, I don’t think it makes much of a difference.

PGC: All right, that’s about all I’ve got for you … Thank you very much for your time, Denis. Thanks to Nintendo for letting me have some of his time. See you at E3

Source: Planet Gamecube